Email conversation with a member of the Christian Church

My responses will be in black and Barrie's responses will be in red…

Dear Kevin - do you remeber making this quote: "Pitch pipes do not ADD to the Word of God, they are merely an AID to help us sing. It is impossible to sing without pitch; therefore, pitch is a necessary part of the command to sing.


Song Books do not ADD to the Word of God. They are used as merely an AID to help us sing.


The same thing can easily be demonstrated in the matter of: 1. Church buildings, 2. Pews, 3. Microphones, 4. ETC?ETC?ETC?


Nothing is done with them that is NOT within the scope of God's will concerning the worship service. They do NOT set up actions in worship separate and apart from that which God has ordained!!! In other words they do NOT ADD nor do they CHANGE the Word of God. Instrumental music on the other hand, is NOT an aid to help us sing, it is an ADDITION to the word of God."


How incredibly illogical can that be? ... To make a distiction between pitch pipes [etc] as only AIDING, but instruments ADDING to worship is an incredible inconsistency.


For the record, I grew up in fellowships similar to yours - fellowships that taught [incorrectly] on the music issue. In fact I am a minister in one of them even now, but find it impossible to defend a stand against using instruments as being sinful.


Blessings.


Barrie

Barrie,

You wrote, "How incredibly illogical can that be? ... To make a distiction between pitch pipes [etc] as only AIDING, but instruments ADDING to worship is an incredible inconsistency."

My reply: No, not "illogical" but the truth. Please explain how using a pitch pipe to aid in getting the right pitch for leading a song and how using an instrument is a "terrible inconsistency"???

You wrote, " For the record, I grew up in fellowships similar to yours - fellowships that taught [incorrectly] on the music issue. In fact I am a minister in one of them even now, but find it impossible to defend a stand against using instruments as being sinful."

My reply: It doesn't surprise me that you did not offer any Scriptural rebuttal to what I wrote because none exists. The truth of the matter is God has told us specifically how He wants us to worship Him and that is through singing, not playing an instrument.

For Christ and those who love the truth in Him,

Kevin Walker

Kevin ...


Sorry I came across as hard-nosed. That was not my intention if it seemed so - I was in a hurry and just sent off a quick note. Thanks for responding to my email.


As for a Scriptural rebuttal, I would argue that there is indeed a number that you might consider and respond to [if you are so inclined: I am aware I just "barged" into your privacy as it were].


If you like, I would be glad to respond with what I believe is Biblical evidence that Paul, along with thousands of N.T. believers, worshipped with instruments.


From one who loves the truth in Jesus,


Barrie Forman

Barrie,

I would like to see your scriptural support for the instrumental music issue. If you can prove that instrumental music is truly authorized from scripture then I will change my position. Are you willing to do the same?

For Christ and those who love the truth in Him,

Kevin Walker

Two quick "evidences" for your consideration:


Acts 2:46; 18:18-21

Blessings ... More to follow about these passages.


Barrie

Barrie,

I will be waiting for more evidence for these two passages you quoted Acts 2:46; 18:18-21 have nothing to do with instrumental music.

Kevin

Kevin ...


Just having guests over so this is a quick response.


As to the scriptural support, I will have to send that soon.


Regarding switching positions, I AM willing to do the same - provided that you can show me scripturally where we are authorized for a number of practices we [and I would assume you too] include in our assemblies today for which we find no biblical support [viz., command]. It is intersting how we tailor the "command, example & necessary inference" principal without being consistent [there is that word again :-)] with it.


So it all depends on how you use the word AUTHORITY.


We must be careful when we use 'swords' as they by their very nature cut both ways.


In Him,


Barrie


Kevin ...


Try to stay on track here.


I mention authority because YOU wrote: If you can prove that instrumental music is truly authorized from scripture then I will change my position ...


My assumption is that you are applying the principal of Command, Example, or, Necessary Inference as it relates to the topic of intsruments [am I wrong here]. And since that is your approach, I said to you in my email that I would be willing to change my view if you can prove to me - that you apply consistency to all matters as relates to worship - namely, where is your [anyones] authority for: songbooks, microphones, buildings, Sunday school classes, multiple cups, etc etc etc.


We do not seem to hold to the C E or, N I principal consistently now do we. Why are you [others] so willing to include these things in our worship, but exclude instruments? Why do you [others] not see the glaring inconsistency here?


As fars as the two verses I sent you having nothing to do with instruments, - I suggest that this where you [other legalists] miss the point. They have EVERYTHING to do with the issue of music.


Temple worship clearly and undisputably included instumental worship --- and the new Christians met there DAILY! Think about the implications of that for a moment. Paul, in keeping the Nazarite vow, and in keeping the feast at the temple, willingly/knowingly and permissibly invovled himself in the environment of intsrumental WORSHIP (for that is exprsssly what he was doing) ... All of this he does, as a full-fledged Christian.


Please prayerfully consider and respond to my letter as you have time.


In His Grace,


Barrie

Barrie,

You wrote, "Kevin ...Try to stay on track here. I mention authority because YOU wrote: If you can prove that instrumental music is truly authorized from scripture then I will change my position ..."

Okay, do you want to talk about authority or do you want to talk about instrumental music?

You wrote, "My assumption is that you are applying the principal of Command, Example, or, Necessary Inference as it relates to the topic of intsruments [am I wrong here]."

Yes you are correct.

You wrote, "And since that is your approach, I said to you in my email that I would be willing to change my view if you can prove to me - that you apply consistency to all matters as relates to worship - namely, where is your [anyones] authority for: songbooks, microphones, buildings, Sunday school classes, multiple cups, etc etc etc."

First we can talk about instrumental music, then if you desire we can talk about authority.

You wrote, "We do not seem to hold to the C E or, N I principal consistently now do we."

That is your opinion, and we will get into that later if that is your desire.

You wrote, "Why are you [others] so willing to include these things in our worship, but exclude instruments?"

Let's decide which issue we will talk about first before I go into all of the details...

You wrote, "Why do you [others] not see the glaring inconsistency here?"

Again, this is merely your opinion, and if you want to talk about this issue I will be more than happy to explain it to you once we have discussed the instrumental music issue.

You wrote, "As fars as the two verses I sent you having nothing to do with instruments, - I suggest that this where you [other legalists] miss the point."

There you go, claiming that I (among others) am a "legalist". Again let me point out to you this is merely your opinion and I challenge you to prove that I am a legalist. Of course we can also get into this discussion after we talk about instrumental music and after we talk about what is authorized.

You wrote, "They have EVERYTHING to do with the issue of music. Temple worship clearly and undisputably included instumental worship --- and the new Christians met there DAILY!"

Are we under the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? Was Temple worship included under the New Coveant? If you say under the New Covenant, then where in the New Testament is Temple worship authorized?

You wrote, "Think about the implications of that for a moment. Paul, in keeping the Nazarite vow, and in keeping the feast at the temple, willingly/knowingly and permissibly invovled himself in the environment of intsrumental WORSHIP (for that is exprsssly what he was doing) ... All of this he does, as a full-fledged Christian."

Did God command Christians to WORSHIP God in the temple in the New Testament??? Scripture references please...What happened to temple worship in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed??? Was Paul sinning by not participating in this worship at Jerusalem when the temple was destroyed??? Why did the Jews say in Acts 6:14 that Jesus was going to destroy the temple and "change the customs" that Moses had delivered to them?

You conveniently forget the Christian Jews went into the temple to try and convert the Jews. (See Acts 5:20, Acts 5:25). Acts 5:42 states, "And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ." Your qibble about Christians worshipping in the temple and participating in instrumental music is easily dismissed by these verses for the only reason the early Christians went into the temple was to preach the gospel of Christ.

If you will notice in the verse you quoted Acts 8:18-21 if you will look at verse 19, Paul explains why he went into the synagogue he "reasoned with the Jews". Again your own verse you quoted proves that Paul did not go there to engage in WORSHIP as you allege.

Now let's see the verses that you say proves that instrumental music can be used in WORSHIP to God. The verses you have quoted so far do no such thing.

For Christ and those who love the truth in Him,

Kevin Walker

Kevin ...


On October 12 you wrote:


Barrie


I would like to see your scriptural support for the instrumental music issue. If you can prove that instrumental music is truly authorized from scripture then I will change my position. Are you willing to do the same?


For Christ and those who love the truth in Him,


Kevin Walker


You seem hung up on my mentioning authority as relates to the instrument question, and seem to object to my associating the two. What truly puzzles me, is how you can ask me to show how instruments are AUTHORIZED from scripture, and then tell me that we need to address instruments and authority seprepately. This makes absolutely no sense in any way to me at all.


Which way do you want it?


What I want to talk about [since you asked] is how the issue of instruments is not a salvation matter - any more than one cup or multiple cups is a salvation matter. * I personally find it impossible to divorce the issues [authority & instruments] and present any type of logical response - since [I assume that] we both want to base our worship on God's will.


So, perhaps you can lay out the parameters by which you see discussing the issue of instruments: I will be most curious to see your response as to how you can divorce authority/instruments and still discuss God's will.


Barrie

Barrie,

You wrote, "You seem hung up on my mentioning authority as relates to the instrument question, and seem to object to my associating the two."

No, the problem is you want to talk about everything else, in addition to instrumental music for you said on October 12: "Regarding switching positions, I AM willing to do the same - provided that you can show me scripturally where we are authorized for a number of practices we [and I would assume you too] include in our assemblies today for which we find no biblical support [viz., command]."

I have told you that I am willing to talk about those subjects however, let's stick to one at a time.

You wrote, "What truly puzzles me, is how you can ask me to show how instruments are AUTHORIZED from scripture, and then tell me that we need to address instruments and authority seprepately. This makes absolutely no sense in any way to me at all. Which way do you want it?"

I have no problem talking about how instruments are AUTHORIZED from scripture. I have consistently told you we can talk about the other things, i.e. pitch pipes, song books etc. in a separate discussion.

You wrote, "What I want to talk about [since you asked] is how the issue of instruments is not a salvation matter - any more than one cup or multiple cups is a salvation matter. * I personally find it impossible to divorce the issues [authority &instruments] and present any type of logical response - since [I assume that] we both want to base our worship on God's will."

There you go again bringing something else up (multiple cups) instead of talking about whether or not the use of instrumental music is authorized. Please present your case for the use of instrumental music in worship and we will see if it is consistent with what God has revealed in His word.

You wrote, "So, perhaps you can lay out the parameters by which you see discussing the issue of instruments: I will be most curious to see your response as to how you can divorce authority/instruments and still discuss God's will."

Again, I have not said that anyone can "divorce authority/instruments" now have I Barrie??? If you want to discuss this issue, please begin with scripture that supports your view as the scriptures you have provided so far do not prove that we can use instruments in our worship to God.

For Christ and those who love the truth in Him,

Kevin Walker

End of Conversation with Barrie…